Aaron Hello, I'm Aaron Kyle and welcome to another episode of Build Hatch. On this week's episode of Build Hatch, I got to sit down with the honourable New South Wales building Commissioner David Chandler in Sydney. If you haven't heard already about David, and what is brought about in the New South Wales building construction industry, I'm sure you will now. Commissioner Chandler is a very passionate and energetic leader in the construction space. And as you'll hear, it has been a very interesting and rewarding career that has led David to be recognised by his peers and his country being awarded the Order of Australian Medal for his services to the construction industry. David is particularly passionate about overhauling quality, and improving standards in the Work Health and Safety space. And as you'll hear, I was really interested in discussing how small construction businesses can step it up working with the big guys in this wonderful building industry at hours. This is a great sit down. So let's get into it. Commissioner Chandler Welcome to Build Hatch.
David
Thank you for having me. It's so can be interesting to have a conversation with you.
Aaron I'm really excited. You're obviously the New South Wales building Commissioner. And I'm really looking forward to this chat. Now. David, like all our guests on Build Hatch, we always like to take it back to the beginning. And where did you grow up?
David
Well, I was born in New Guinea, on a 50. So that's a while back and my father was in aviation. And I came back to Australia when I was two. But when I was 10, my parents went back to New Guinea. So I really then grew up from 10 to my end of my teens in New Guinea, and we lived in Port Moresby. And it was a bit like living in a boy's annual because the Kokoda trail was at my doorstep and my best mate lived in Jakarta and my father ran the national airline and I spent every weekend in an aeroplane going somewhere, pulling back bags and mud crabs and goodness knows what it was just like a boy's annual. So it's a fascinating childhood. Yeah, that was great. And I guess it prepared me in many ways for and when you talk about kids today, and you worry about the other things they might get up to, oh, I used to come home and tell my mother some of the things I did when I wasn't on the end of the rally together was that she'd look at me she say you're joking, you didn't do that. And I went down rivers, paths, crocodiles, and typhoons and all sorts of stuff. And she said, I'd rather probably not know as much as you're telling me. But so my parents got divorced when I was 13. And so I was sent off to boarding school. So I went to boarding school in Sydney and, and had a mixed life of city life for part of the year and home to New Guinea four times a year, which was just amazing. And I spent most of my time in Chicago with my best mate and stuff we got up to he was they had a cattle farm and they had gold mines and they had rubber. And we spent a lot of time flooding up and down rivers and walking into the Kokoda trail. And so it was pretty special. But it took us some resilience that taught you probably to be a bit bolder than you should have been. You will always think you're bulletproof when you're that age, but we got away with being bulletproof.
Aaron So what was that like going backwards and forwards and having that real sort of practical lifestyle and coming back to the city for school,
David
or boarding schools or hard life you're back in the 60s, the days of boarding school was pretty ragged, big dormitories, cold, cranky, housemasters, I guess in a way that toughens you up a bit as well. So now look, boarding school, I love boarding school, because you sort of have 300 mates on tap 24/7. And you want to have a game of rugby at any time. You've got an automatic team. And you're into it. So we did all sorts of things. And again, some of the stuff that we did and went back and told our parents about, they weren't overly amused by that. But that was life. So that really set it up. But it was a Christian grammar school that I went to. And in Port Moresby, where I grew up, it was a very religious town in those days. So you grew up very much. I was an altar boy, in Port Moresby when I was in primary school. And so you'd become pretty engaged with church life, because it's part of the community in places like you're getting at the time very strong mission, Outlook. So I carried that into the boarding school that I was at, because you know, it was a Christian boarding school. And I got to the end of that, and my mother said to me, what are you going to do yourself? And I said, Well, I think I got to be a priest. And she said, well, not into the event around the world on your own, and I'll pay the ticket and give you some money. And because you're not going to make that decision without going and seeing the world and see what the alternative is. So, unfortunately, it didn't get that far, because I ran into a couple of people that really set me on the construction career that I was at. So back in those days, people like Alan keel, who was the founder of Kellen Rigby and Lyle Giles, who was the founder of LW Giles at the time, and I went out to an orientation day just to hear a bit about this industry and Oh, was pretty well hooked from that moment. And I've been passionately engaged in this industry now for over 50 years and been a fantastic trajectory,
Aaron where you're a practical person in in construction or like we're more management What were you thinking sort of back then
David
I started on the tools. I mean, while I was a cadet, I've graduated from school, and then I went to university straight from school. So Aw. Edwards in those days hadn't had such a thing as a cadet they'd only ever had apprentices. So Mr. Edwards said to me, Lucky said, I don't know anything about these university courses. But he said, so I'll let you start as a second year apprentice, sir. He's the kid of tools. And they morning, so I spent three years doing a real apprenticeship on site. In this joinery shop. I saw the whole gambit right. So I've had a privileged introduction to the industry where I've pretty well done everything I've mixed concrete, I bought piles, I've fitted off joinery I've welded. I've dubbed a crane. There's not a job in the industry that I haven't done. And so what that did was give me an unbelievable insight into how to apply my skills in organising projects, managing the design of projects, managing the delivery of projects. So I started as a as a as an administrator with concrete constructions after I graduated. And I was with concretes until the end of 88. So my journey there was administrator, project manager, associate director. And then Director, I've worked across projects, Sydney, Hilton key apartments, big and small projects. And perhaps my skill set became recognised as being someone who can sort projects out when they're in the strife. So I became almost a bit like the red Adair at concrete constructions that I got sent to clean up everybody else's mess. Sydney Hilton was two or three years into it, and it wasn't looking like it was going to be finished. And so I was sent down there to finish that off, so did the last two years down there and brought the project home. And I've done probably many projects like that, but the trajectory they put me on was at 34 years of age, they threw me the keys and said might go down and finish Parliament House in Canberra. So I was went down as a construction director at Parliament House at 34 years of age and, and had to bring that home. And so it was a billion dollar project. So it was a pretty extraordinary opportunity to have that. But you know, the thing that always stood me in good stead was that I just had such a knowledge of how to make buildings and how materials go together and how to talk to trades people and, and work with them. It's been a really easy journey to do that. Because when you when you can actually talk that talk and help people walk the walk. It's a joy to be in this industry.
Aaron You mentioned a couple of things there about you had that early on practical experience. One of the observations that I find problematic in industry is a lot of people when they go down the Construction Management path of university life, the first job they get thrown into or is commonly advertised for as a contract administrator, it just seems a little bit backward, that you go into that role, where you miss out on so many practical levels of the business, the foreman with the day to day sort of stuff,
David
or do you do miss out on that. And, you know, when I when I did my building degree, it was a New South Wales University in those days known as Kenzo tech, that sort of still had that blend of lecturers that were ex practitioners from the industry. So you really got taught by people that built stuff. And whereas if you went back these days, you'd probably be taught by people who never built anything. So look, I think one of the big mistakes that our industry and government made about the early 80s was to make a university career the only worthwhile career to go after we actually devalued a vocational career, we've devalued TAFE and said, If we're going to be the clever country, we need people who go through universities now we did that for 20 years before we worked out. Wrong answer. Well said. So look, you know, what we did then was we created a cohort of people that they were an envelope leakers, as far as I'm concerned. So they were powder puff builders. And we used to joke at times that concrete said we want to get a new project manager coming in. And we wanted to get people who were really practical and knew how to build buildings and and an interview is weed for my viewers, is that person has sprayed dust on their shoes before they came in. Was that real? Or was it a spray can. So we never had much time for people who didn't know much about building so. Yeah, look, I think it's an unfortunate thing and we're paying a high price because on the jobs that I've been going to as building Commissioner over the last three years now is that I'm finding construction management graduates, I'd say 60 60% of the people Little graduated, were in it just to get a piece of paper just to get a job, a well paid job as an administrator or a persistent project manager or something, they jumped that critical learning phase. And that's showing up in the buildings that I'm seeing where these people just don't understand how you put formwork together, how you pour concrete properly, how you lay bricks, how you put tiles on walls, what's acceptable, what isn't acceptable. And so we've got to go back and re seed those people with the insights they need to have if we're going to build good buildings. So we've had 30 years now of graduating people that we had on bad trajectories. In Europe, if you want to be an architect or an engineer, you generally would start your career as a trades person, and you do two or three years on the tools. And then you'd have a really good understanding of when you put a line on a piece of paper for a wall, and you wanted to make it out of bricks, or you want to make it out of timber or whatever, you'd have a pretty good idea how that stuff went together. We've got people who are putting lines on piece of paper. In fact, another problem that we've developed is that you also had to have a good capability in drawing manual drawing. And of course, now everything's done on a computer, I flip a pen to a few people on sites these days and say, you know, draw me a section of what that looks like if I open it up. And you can see them whether in front of you because and I remember down at woollen gone over a young biker, a pencil on a piece of paper and I said, that expansion joint Do you Do you know what's in there? And he said on I said, we subcontracted that out to someone who's a real specialist in that. Okay, that's fine. But what do you think is in there? So what do you think he did? Or? I don't know. He says, Well, I said, How about you take this piece of paper and this pencil, and you draw me what you think there. And then I'm going to open it up, because my powers allowed me to open it up. And then we'll have a look and see what's really there. You know, half an hour later, he still hadn't put a pencil on a piece of paper, because he was actually fundamentally frightened of drawing. Yeah. So we really do need to probably go back and invest. And it's really pleasing that, you know, the government now, federally and in the state has realised just the importance of vocational education. I wasn't cut out to be a rocket scientist. I mean, I was pretty ordinary, I had pretty ordinary grades. When I graduated from school, I think I had two or three credits, and the rest of it passes. That was pretty ordinary. And I don't think I was a superstar at university either. But I had a ferocious appetite to soak up knowledge about this industry. I mean, I've just been a student of this industry for so long. So I think we've got to go back and get people who have got that fire in their belly and got that excitement about getting your hands on something. Because there's nothing more exciting than that. I remember during Parliament House, my kids were at school in Canberra, and 90% of the people there worked in the bureaucracy. And my son came home and said that the teacher asked us all today to stand up and tell the class what a dad did. He said, and I was the only one in the class who could stand up and say, Well, my dad's building that building up the road, and all the rest of them, their dads were stamped like us for the bureaucracy. So they couldn't tell anybody what their dads did. So it's been one of those visuals sort of experiences are very rewarding when you when you look back on it.
Aaron Now, tell us about the I guess the journey to being appointed the New South Wales Building Commission, how does that opportunity come along?
David
It was an accident of time, I guess. I was 68, I think at the time and and I had just finished putting three years pro bono in at Western Sydney University, trying to contribute to the shaping of the Construction Management Programme out there. And I'd raised some money for research three quarters of million dollars to get some research and some PhD started. And so I'd spent three years out there as an adjunct professor. adjunct professors, not a real professor, so at university, you just pretend professor if you're an adjunct but so I spent three years there was fantastic, because I got to see that side of the industry education, I got to see the strengths and the weaknesses, and the pressures that modern educators are under because there's never enough money to properly fund the programmes and invest in new courses and, and make sure that we've got the very best best people teaching there. So I put three years into that. And I thought, well, I don't really need to do anything else. And I've got my grandkids coming along. And I like beach fishing and whatever. So I was on my way, I'd packed up I basically, I'd switch into pension mode on my super fund and, and so I was sort of like out the door. And after after that my rods, and I got a call one Friday afternoon to say, Could I come in and have a chat. And the Secretary of the Department said, we've, we've been out to advertise for this role to just see it and I said, No, not really, I wasn't looking and he said, Well, we've had 22 applicants and we're not going to appoint any of them and we've been told to go back and have a look and your one or two names that have come up and, and so would you be interested in this at all, but you'd need to convince me that it meant something and that you are serious because I'm, I'm not a powder puff, I'm not here for a denture. And, and so one thing led to the other, but it moved pretty quickly because I was signed up the following Wednesday night. So it took a matter of five days, and I was in the box we were in. And so we haven't looked back. I mean, it was, it was an unknown journey. It was one where the Minister Kevin Addison, really convinced me that he was serious about getting this sorted out. He said, you know, Davey said, we're really serious about this appointment, we're really serious about putting in the hands of someone like, you, we know you're a hard bastard and, but we know you know, your stuff. And we know that you are pretty well respected across the industry. And for this job to be successful, unless we had someone in here who had wide industry respect, it just wouldn't work for it. So. And then he tried me up to meet the premier. So I met when I met premier Berejiklian and had a cup of tea with her. And I said, you know, how serious are you? And she said, we're pretty serious. And, and she had a media advisor in the room and, and I looked at him, and I said, Well, you know, I've been pretty active on LinkedIn over the last couple of years. And I haven't been able to kind about your government and your leadership, all of that. And I said, so I'll chuck a few rocks at you over. Yeah. So yeah, we've been back through all of that. And we've had a look at that we'd love and we think that's pretty authentic. We don't always like what you say, but at least it's out of their head. And it's informed. And I said, so would you like me to turn my LinkedIn account off? And I said, No, no, no, no, no, no, no, we want you to keep being authentic and keep messaging and it works with me on some of the social media stuff we do. And it's amazing that we've got really a very large group of people that have bought into the fact that we are talking with people not at them, where we're explaining what the opportunities are, we're explaining where we see weaknesses, and where we see opportunities. And we do some serious call outs from time to time and, and we did, we did one last one last weekend on a job where we had to call out bad practice. And
David
we've worked out there's a sweet spot on on Sunday afternoons where nobody seems to be putting anything up much on LinkedIn, that's of any interest. So we think there must be an algorithm sitting behind back on LinkedIn that says Sunday afternoon, the building Commissioner logs opposed. And it quickly goes to 20,000 reads, And this week, it's just ticked over 135,000. So in four days, so we've got a following of people who are interested in in following the journey, we try to communicate with them, learning stuff, we don't we don't just we don't see as an indulgence, we see it as being genuine explanation of the journey, we're on genuine sharing of the experiences that we're seeing. And, and it's been quite interesting. So from the day one, I have always been of the strong belief that this government is 100% committed to turning this industry around. I can't think of a single occasion where I've been told no, we're not going to do that Commissioner will offend this person or will offend that person. So as long as the the ideas and the actions were logical and had a purpose, we've had 100% support in this office to get this job done. So it's been quite amazing. So there you are an accident. And it's now nearly three years since I've walked in the door. And they've just asked me to hang around for a bit longer. So I just sent a message out a few developers this week to say, Guys, I understand you had a bit of champagne on ice for first week in October, how about you put it back in the cupboard?
Aaron Now, we were talking early, just before about LinkedIn, and the videos and and I mean, it's important to note some of these cases had notice that you guys are coming to site and having a look. So in those situations is quite alarming, isn't it that there is that notice some of these serious, significant issues are still there. And that's straight shooting, you know, like, you'd like to think that these defects or these risks to people and equipment on site aren't there all the time. But let's face it, if you're getting a bit of notice that the commissioner or or the department is coming to site to have a bit of a look or an audit, and these things are still there. That's It's pretty crazy stuff really?
David
Well. The challenge we've got, of course, is that a lot of these people are not conscious of what good looks like they they learn bad habits in their early career. And so their benchmark is always their bad habits. So I feel sorry for some of these young people on these jobs when I go along. And and I do cause some of them a fair bit of grief and I I don't do it lightly and I don't do it often. But every now and again. I have to make a statement like I did last week and when I said to that young fellow Did you Get your construction management in a nice to show back. And his boss rang me the next day. And he said, Did you really need to be that tough on my young bloke and I said, Well, he's been working for you for three years, and he's been a graduate for over six years. I might, he knows nothing, go and have a look around the job. He knows nothing. Even had a lift shaft where it had an unprotected edge with a force four storey drop on the lift shaft. Now, life to me is precious. So I make it clear to everybody that rule number one for me is that everybody gets home safe. If you haven't got that on your mind, if you don't demonstrate that to me, and you don't just talk at you walk it. Everybody home safe is mission number one for me. I had a death on one of my sites. When I was an administrator way back in my career, I was only sitting at the desk pushing paper at the time, but But you know, we had a mechanical sheet metal worker on the job and, and we had all the scaffolding and everything there. And we had some purlins up for the roof. And they had a race to smoker. And this guy decided to beat all his mates, the smoker shed. So he stepped out of the scaffolding and ran across one of the purlins and slipped in and he fell eight feet, broke his neck and dead 36 years of age and three kids. So it's horrible. It is absolutely horrible. And that one of that situation with Christopher recently on that job, it can Ellen's job at it, right? I mean, there's nothing worse than a death on a job. And there's nothing worse than a a maiming accident on a job because these things live with you for the rest of your life as well. So I have a zero tolerance of unsafe work practices. And I just think some of these young people are not taught about embedded safety, it's got to be a life. Your lifestyles got to be about how safe is this job? Is everybody gonna get home every night? So I go into these jobs where people give me a safety induction. And I say, well, that's fantastic. Did you go around the job this morning before you put the key in the gate and let everybody in because you're the safety officer. I use it and there are no hazards on this job. Pretty good, make it all be pretty, right. So by the time I've left, and I've got a list of things that are wrong. And I'll get right into these blocks and say you've got no idea you're out to lunch. And if I come back again and find it like this, I'll shut you down. Because safety is number one. And of course, the other thing that we've done is that it's an industry that didn't think there are any women in it anymore. Didn't think there were many women into it at all, and they weren't gay to be. And I'm finding the most atrocious side amenities, amenities that are not fit for a third world country. So let alone for miles, but absolutely not suitable for females. And so you'll see that some of my posts, I actually photograph the toilets. And I put it out there. And these guys are saying Commissioner Comey said that post that that's terrible to say, but that's what you've got your workforce, that's a valid point using so. So there's a strong correlation on if you've got an unsafe site, and you've got a site with lousy amenities, you are most likely 100% To have a lot of non compliant construction, unless you're just simply not thinking about it.
Aaron What about like, everything you've said is so true. What about someone listening this who's running a smaller business? Who doesn't have the sophisticated systems in place yet? Who doesn't have that money behind them? Who's say a residential builder who wants to step it up with the big guys and girls, to put it lightly? What do you do? How do you how do you juggle that sort of pressure and that that tension of getting to that step?
David
Anyone who thinks this industry that the entry point now can be a $2 company or using a mobile phone, they're over? I mean, we're building serious assets that people invest their life savings in. They're emotionally invested. They're economically invested. So you've got a duty of care if you're going to be a player in this industry to make sure that you don't put consumers in in harm's way. So if you think this is all about you, then you're entering the industry for the wrong reason, because this industry is all about the consumers and getting it right and getting your customers to come back. I mean, I had a wonderful privilege of spending time with Avi Jennings, the founder of a VJ and, and he said, David, he said, Yeah, 80% of our customers repeat. If they're not someone coming back and buying their second or third home, they're great at trading up or they're trading down. They're bringing their kids in to say, you buy a house off Mr. Jennings, and he said, You know, I value my brand so much. Now I started building a couple of cottages at a time. And I always made a commitment that if I was going to build Cottages of more than that scale, they were going to be good cottages. Now he grew a business that was doing 20,000 cottages a year at one stage, and he still had an ethic running right threw the business was that he stood behind every single house. So if you're going to start up today, I think that you're going to have to recognise the fact that you probably need to have the right capital, you need to have some people, a single director of a company is simply a not a good way to do your business, you should, you should have a couple of non executive directors who they don't need to work in the business or will be full time. But you need people who can say, you know, I wouldn't do that, or someone you go back and say, Hey, I'm thinking about doubling the size of the business. But we'll have a look at you and say, Well, maybe you're a bit short on an administrator, or you didn't make a profit on that last job. So you don't make a profit, doubling your business, the first thing you do is make a profit on what you're doing now. And then you're done, then you double your business. So I think if I was starting out or advising someone to start out, I'd say, make sure that you've got a company structure that might have a couple of people on on the board that might be prepared to do you know, when no was necessary. Make sure that you've got enough capital to do the sorts of work that you're undertaking, because it's not a dress rehearsal. I mean, this ain't a dress rehearsal is business. If you go belly up, and you've got 10. uncompleted homes, you're potentially going to destroy 10 families.
Aaron That's right. Big ramifications. Totally. So
David
you've got a duty of care to get it right. Absolutely.
Aaron So chief, you've been awarded the Order of Australia metal, to one hell of an achievement, how are you awarded that metal?
David
Well, it sort of came not long after we we finished Parliament House, I mean, when I say we there was 3000 people on the job site. So I always take a view that no one ever did anything on their own. I mean, I had 3000 people there were 100% committed to making sure that Job was finished on time. And it was the best quality job that was ever built for mankind. And, and so during that job, we we were able to really engage the community and, and we use things like open days and all sorts of other opportunities to do some significant fundraising. Our fund partner was Rotary, and the programme that they had was to eliminate malaria, and then to eliminate polio. And so we had a purpose. That was we said, well, everything we do here that has got the opportunity to drag a few dollars in the door, let's make sure that we tip the dollars into these sorts of things. And so I've always been pretty community minded, I've always felt that, well, I've spent about 30% of my hours away from home through my life of basically doing voluntary work. And I was chairman of Central Coast area health and and you end up really spending a lot of time on industry associations and advising, education boards and all those sorts of things. So I think that the recognition was for the contribution to the community and the industry. And so I'm proud to have had that recognition. But I make it pretty clear every time that that gets raised is that there's a cast of 1000s that really helped make that happen.
Aaron Well, that's that's what it's about, isn't it? It's about being recognised by your peers and your country, the contribution that you make to your industry and community. Now, besides straight shooting and being active out there in the industry, what does the commissioner like to do when he's not busy with work?
David
Well, these days, there's not much time outside work, I have to tell you that I hit the decks here at about 838 o'clock in the morning. And I don't leave here till 630 at night and I generally have a swag of stuff to take home on weekends. And I haven't hit a golf ball since I've been Commissioner. Well, that's not quite right, I've had two or three. I've had two or three rounds of golf since I was commissioner. But I find that if you don't hit the ball, often you hit the ball badly or you don't hit it at all. So I don't enjoy that. But I said my handicap is undescribable number at the moment. So I hope one day that I can put that back together again, I'd like to have a crack sort of getting back to the mid teens at least at least and and enjoy golf because I think batting off 30 is not much fun. So I think I think you need to have at least half that and that saves a lot of balls as well. I do a bit of golf. I really enjoy cooking so I do a fair bit of cooking when there's an opportunity. So I generally do most of the major events that around my family's home and so cooking is a big experience. I have been heavily involved in the wine industry over the years I did own a small vineyard up in the heart of there at Killman so I had a share in the Coleman estate so I think I did five or six vintages up there and went through the growing the grapes and getting getting the grapes made and then trying to market the stuff and and it's funny, isn't it when you start a new vineyard off it's very, very young and it doesn't really make great grapes and I drag one of my mates up in the early vintages and said to him, hey, what do you think of this? And he said, Oh, it's just remarkable. He said this is just remarkable. And so what what's remarkably said how you got the horse to stand over the bottle. So bit a bit of wine. I had a pretty good collection on one stage and but my real my real joy is Is, is beach fishing and estuary fishing. I don't really care for the ocean that much. But my folk, my father and my grandfather were fishermen of extraordinary capability. And I've just had the joy of just spending plenty of time watching that line drift in the water and letting your mind just float along with it. Every now and again, you're dragger fishing, and, and I've got a young grandson who's as enthusiastic as I am about it. So he keeps banging me on the shoulder, same pop, when are we going fishing again? Where are we going fishing again. So all of those things are on my agenda. I got six grandkids now. So that's, that's a joy, a real privilege. And so I've got plenty to do. So this will get this job done in the next year. And there's plenty of stuff to do. Now that
Aaron well said and I can't help but ask and be curious to know, what's the biggest change you'd like to see in the industry moving forward before you finish your role?
David
Well, I'm sure I'll always have some engagement with work, I'm not gonna sort of stop work. It's just that I'm going to make no more time. I'd like to do but. And I've also, I've been married 50 years this year. So I've got a wife who's pretty invested in the pain and suffering caused by cranky old buddy building Commissioner Cunningham. So I've got a bit of bit of effort to put back there. But look, this industry is now 20 years into the 21st century. And we're really just discovering that we're still using building contracts that were written in the twilight of the last century. Those contracts were written with the sorts of attitudes that people who used to bully their supply chain, and past risks down the supply chain. They institutionalise that now we're 20 years past when that should have been taken out. They were so far into the century, that technology would allow us now to enable that direct payments went straight from the customer to the supply chain, why should they have a holiday at the builders bank account on the way out to the supply chain. So I'm working on a project at the moment, we're doing this remediation of the cladding in New South Wales. And because I'm the boss, it's I'm able to sort of put a few rules in and one of them is that we're setting up the contract such that the clients will directly pay any subcontractor on any of the jobs who's got a contract value of $50,000 or more, they'll get directly paid at the same time as what's left for the builder gets paid, I have a low tolerance of people grabbing hold of stuff that other people have earned that value from. And so I think we're going to see a rapid transition of that I think these trust accounts and all that sort of stuff. Why would you need a trust account? If you just said to the client, here's all the people that made my progress payment 80% of my progress payments, all these people, I authorise you to pay them directly? Well, how hard is that? So I think we're going to see that sort of shift, it's I think we've still got to highlight issues from the last century dictating people who still want to hold on to those old ways of doing things. I think that we've seen an explosion in wages costs in, in the industry, I have some views about what's causing that. But it's pointless to unpack that now. But on a job site these days, that 100 bucks an hour, 220 bucks an hour, that'd be pretty well what you're all up cost for labour is, and only only a matter of five or seven years ago, it was 80 bucks an hour, that's got to tell you now that you've got to start to move that workforce off the site and start to bring stuff to the site. So I reckon that probably by 2025, you'll only what we do on the job site today, at least 50% of that effort will have moved off site and why not? Because why shouldn't the windows fit the opening when they get there? Why should you have to cut the windows to suit the opening. So I think we're going to see more and more off site, we also need to realise that we live in a global ecosystem in construction where the global construction turnover is about 12 trillion US dollars a year. So that's how big it is. And in Australia, we represent about 2% of that. So we are an absolute speck on the tail of the global construction elephant. And we tend to think that we live in an island. But the bottom line is about 60% of everything we put in a building these days, comes from the global marketplace doesn't matter if aluminium sprinkler heads, light fittings, you name it 60% I think these days comes from markets that beyond just simply our own. And so we've got to start to develop procurement and quality control systems that allow you to have a line of sight to the beginning of materials where they come from, make sure that they're compliant, make sure that they are fit for purpose, and that we're not putting trash into buildings. So I think we will adapt working better in a global supply chain than we have been. And I think that people are not conscious of just how smart buildings are getting. So buildings are getting smarter, where there's more there's more smartness going in buildings than people imagine. And that's happening every single day. I mean, I'm seeing precast panels now come embedded with receptors in them that can transmit the temperature of the precast panel to an independent monitoring source to say is the panel Performing isn't wet is water going through the panel? So we're getting smartness embedded into it. I mean today if you take cranes, I mean, just, just in seven years, the transformation in cranes, I used to have a conversation with people back about 2012 13. And I said, you know, I reckon we'll have electric cranes by 2022, and nine and MA diesel crazy around forever, mate, you know?
David
Well, I reckon 80% of cranes these days are electric cranes. And the reason for that is that they're quieter. So you know, we're building in urban areas, and diesel cranes were really, really noisy. And so electric cranes are much more quiet. They're also environmentally friendly, because you can get your source from a green power supply. But more importantly, an electric crane allows you to have on board a whole bunch of sensory capabilities that were never there in the old, clunky, these are cranes. And so there's now people who sell cranes. And they offer a global around the clock, observation of those cranes. So all the all the diagnostics are being sucked up from all of these cranes around the world. And they'll monitor did the driver do an over lift today, go straight to the data centre, say that drivers constantly doing an over lift, or there's now technology available that if there's a particular lift that you need to do, that's a bit complicated. Some cranes now will offer you a hologram that sits beside and says this is this is how you do it shows you how to do it shows you how to do it. And, and so cranes in the Middle East and other places, these global companies provide global service. So they'll send you a message and say, Your cranes got to be down for two hours. Next week, we've got the global service team coming in to service, it's planned to have two hours downtime. Next week, our team will fly in surface your crane and leave. Now that's just automatic, because that ensures once you'd have a crane that is fit for purpose, it's operating, it's having safety observances, same things happening with lifts. If you go out and have a look at Coneys datacenter. Out there, South Sydney, they offer 24/7 Lift car support, the days of waiting for technician to turn up and talk to you and say Monday, we're on the way, you just press a button now and you and you're immediately talking to someone who knows exactly, they'll say, Oh, you're in lift car number two, and you're you're caught between the 10th and the 11th floor, don't do anything, we're on the way. So everybody stands still, we're going to try and reset the controller. So that in fact, that fault, because most computers, you know, if you turn them off and turn them on, they tend to work. So they give that a go as well. But they're able to do it in a way where the passengers sort of know what's happening and no one's real shocked about it. So buildings are getting smarter and, and COVID is actually driving that now. So if for example, you follow the delivery of health services during COVID, a lot of the hospitals now have treated a hospital in a home using technology where the district nurse can take the apparatus around and actually plug it into the internet in your home, do the scan, actually have the camera on your look you've got here now. And the specialist can have a look at you and say yeah, give him a pill or bring him in, right. So we're going to see more on that. And as you and I get older. This is gonna allow us to live in our home safely because we're going to have a smart house around us. It's going to it's going to tell us what day of the week it is to tell us if it's raining outside and so it's very exciting times and so I had a bunch of young professionals in here graduate certifiers here. Last week, I had 20 of them in for afternoon tea and, and I just said oh my wish I was 20 years younger, because this stuff should have started 20 years ago. I just wish I could have a 20 year ride on some of this stuff. Because these are amazing times if you're thinking about a career in construction these days, it has never been more exciting than it is now.
Aaron And also to I think in in line with the theme of embracing change, getting on the bandwagon, adapt will be left behind really is totally,
David
totally if you if you want to live under a rock and you say some of these young people didn't work out that I was coming to visit their site even with a week's notice. I said I mean it goes do live under a rock. This is not the time to live under a rock. This is the time to be inquisitive. This is the time to be excited and get out and fight about everything you can possibly know most of the transactions in this industry will be done on blockchain within five years. So totally.
Aaron I think it'd be unfair if I didn't ask this question. What about a positive story where someone has resisted your presence or your visit? And then a few weeks later, they've actually realised the benefit of of your visit or the change that happened? I'm glad you dropped in. It helped make things better for us.
David
Well, my style first of all, is to not go in with guns blazing. What I try to do is to do an assessment of where you're up to what are your skill sets what Do strengths, what are your weaknesses and try and share with people? What it would look like if they did their job differently to the way they did it today. So I tried to the extent possible to mentor as my first move. And I try to avoid causing the level of stress I can because So a good example would be
David
a certifier, who was a marginal certifier. And he'd been responsible for a few bad jobs when I first came in, and I quickly became aware of him and, and let's call him Bob. And I said, you know, Bob, what you've done shocking might and you've really got to pay the price for this. He gave me a bit of lip to start with and sort of said, if it's alright for you, mate, I've got to live and all these developers are tough guys. And I've got to roll with the punches. And frankly, make good luck with what you're trying to do, because I'm just going to carry on. Now, I did step very heavily on that guy, the second or third time that I ran into Bob, and I said to him, mate, if you think nothing's changing, pal, put your seatbelt on because you're in for a ride. So I really gave him carry. The third time I experienced with him. I looked back as I was just walking back to my car, and I could see him standing there with his shoulders slumped. And he looked as though he had the black dog on his shoulder. And I thought, you know, geez, you've really got to be careful, because, you know, I do put the fear in some people and, and that would be an awful outcome if that person was so distressed by that experience. So I walked back to him and I put my hand on his shoulder. I said, I'm here to get the job done, right. But I'm not here to do it at your expense. So why don't we have a cup of coffee together? And let's talk about what this might look like for it. So we did and, and I check in with this guy every couple of months. I really when I say Bob, a guy, mate. And during last year, he turned around his business model. He employed a half a dozen certifiers, and, and he kept ringing me and he said, Dave, he said, I've I flicked all the lousy developers, he said, I've just gone and told them, not my life doesn't include carrying you around, and I'm not carrying your cross anymore. So I flicked half of his clients, and then made it clear that he was only going to take on on decent clients from now on. I said, Ah, that's fascinating. i Good luck with that. And he said, No, no, no, he said, the fact that the industry is changing, and the developers are getting the message, he said, so suddenly, there's an appetite for me to actually do my job properly. And he said, so I'm getting, I'm getting my mojo back. And he rang me just before Christmas, and I said, well, so how has this year gone? And he said, Well, he said, I've have the number of jobs that I used to take on at virtually no margin at all, have the number of jobs, I've got rid of all of the crap developers that I used to work with. And he said, so I've got a bunch of good developers who want me to do my job properly and are prepared to pay me. He said, Do you know I've now got enough time back, he said, I spent, he said, I've got a young family. So I'm spending time with my families, and I'm having absolutely happy life. Instead of walking around thinking, Oh, I've got to run over here and tick the box for that bag of whatever and tick over there for that one. So there's a really good example of, of the sorts of changes that are happening out there right now I've got a company that the first time I was on the job about a year ago, it was a disgrace. And I gave them a moderately hard time. And their management soaked it up. And they said, you know, we'd like to do a better job than we're doing. And we really think we ought to really start focusing on that, and they have and, but when you get on my naughty books, you see me, you get me, you see me more often. And so I've just done a fourth visit to this company's projects. And, and you know, they meet you at the gate, and they got smiles all over their face and say, gee, we hope you're going to like this one better than the first one and the last one or whatever. So I gotta tell you that this company really is showing an absolute they've turned the boat around. And, and you know, you know, when a company is changing its culture, not just simply what it's trying to blow, smoke up your tires, or whatever. I know when a developer is trying to pull wool over my eyes when they're trying to hide the things that are not right on their jobs. This last inspection I did with this builder, they said, Commissioner Rob, I'd like your take it out and show you a few things we stuffed up while we were doing the basement down here. And we want to show you how we're fixing it. And the fact that we've now got an engineer coming in and making sure that it's been the rectifications been properly designed, because we don't want to leave anything like that behind us anymore. So they took me around and showed me every one of their stuff ups and what they were doing about it now I reckon that's when the covers has changed, right? When people are really coming out and saying, we're not perfect yet. And we're making some mistakes. But we're going to show you the mistakes that we're making, and we're going to show you what we're doing about it. That's that's transformation. Yeah,
Aaron it's a step in the right direction. Yeah. All right. Well, chief, it's Bremmer really nice to have you on the show. I can't thank you enough for your time. You know, I encourage everyone to go online. LinkedIn is where Commissioner Chandler is most active on at the moment.
David
It's not a complaints there. So I got about 10 messages on my LinkedIn every day saying, Commissioner, my water taps leaking or whatever, could you cut it? I'm not a fire engine that runs around and chases fires. So you need to go through fair trading and make a proper proper representation through the organisation. So hopefully, LinkedIn presence is helpful, but I'm not a hot desk. Okay.
Aaron All right. Well, Commissioner Chandler, I really appreciate your time. And thank you for sharing your story and coming on to Build Hatch or my privilege. Thank you. Well, that was another Build Hatch episode with David Chandler, the New South Wales building Commissioner. And I really love David's passion and energy. And I certainly encourage you all to check out some of David's interesting posts on LinkedIn. As usual, if you and I are hard worker having a go in the construction space, or a building related business personal product, we love what they're doing or selling them, please get into contact with us. And we'll be more than happy to tell their story and get behind their goods or services on the Build Hatch marketplace. Now team is busy rolling out independent sellers on Build Hatch.com As we speak, so stay tuned for more and more products and services as we gradually onboard them. As usual, please check out our own Instagram page and other socials, where you'll be able to learn more about our guests and some of the features of their work that we talked about. Have a great week and you hear me get on the airwaves next week. Thanks for listening to another episode of Build Hach.
