Episode 82 - Elinor Moshe The Construction Coach

September 09, 2022
Episode 82 - Elinor Moshe The Construction Coach

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Hello, I'm Aaron Kyle and welcome to another episode of Build Hatch. On this week's episode of Build Hatch, I got to sit down in Melbourne and chat with Elinor Moshe, otherwise known as The Construction Coach. As you'll hear, Elinor was doing some wonderful things in corporate life in construction, not only here in Australia, but also internationally. Elinor and I had a really insightful chat. And I especially wanted small businesses to hear about how the corporate space is travelling construction right now. Illinois was very passionate about the industry. So let's get into it. Elinor Moshe from the Construction Coach, welcome to Build Hatch.

Elinor Hi, Aaron. It's great to be here. And even better to be on the other side of the microphone.

Aaron Definitely. So like all I guess , before we talk about the wonderful things that you're doing in that space, did you grow up here in Melbourne?

Elinor I was born in Israel. But yes, I grew up in Melbourne since I was mayor eight months old. So very local to the area.

Aaron And what were you like, as a child,

Elinor Not too dissimilar from what I am right now. outspoken, I stood up for what I wanted, quiet, stubborn, very independent in my nature and my thinking I never fit in, in schools I never fit in, in high school, I never fit in, in university. And it was only very much when I got to my corporate career that the oppression and pressure to fit in, took over. But that's another discussion. I grew up as an only child. And what that enabled me to do was devalue my own company and spend the most time with myself. And I can see how the Korea that I have now and thought leadership has truly been seeded from me being very good by myself, I'm great with my thoughts and my own company. And that was me as a child still very bookish writing books as a kid on fantasy worlds. And that's what I get to do today. So I was born for this.

Aaron So what influenced you to get into construction law? Were you seeking that industry from a young age?

Elinor Definitely not my typical Jewish parents, I was meant to be a doctor, or a lawyer. And, you know, you cave to that influence. But I didn't. I was meant to be a lawyer. But my parents were really good at letting me express what I wanted to follow whatever path I wanted. Actually, in year 12, I was very good at art. But I was also very frustrated with the creative process. But I pursued architecture. And whilst I slugged my way through architecture, I realised I am creative, but not in that typical sense. And what the architecture world was missing for me was the logic, the structure and the processes around making a dream, which was the build come into fruition. And when I was seeking what further higher education I should do, it probably didn't speak to me, urban planning definitely meant nothing to me. I could not imagine doing another three years of perspex models and sticking balsa wood together. 3am. So construction management was the only option available at the time. And when I started discovering it, it was an industry that was everything at once and started answering all my questions, but also starting to fulfil that left brain, right brain, right brain balance that I have, which is that creative process, but also that logic that structure that reasoning and analysis that you need in order to succeed. So I stumbled my way into the industry and coming up to eight, nine years later, I'm still here, but in a completely different shape and form.

Aaron Now, tell us what it's like. I mean, you mentioned that you weren't a traditional child growing up. So what's it like? What are some of the challenges of a woman entering the construction industry, which, you know, back then would have been even more difficult than what it is now? Like, what were some of the challenges like back then?

Elinor Good question. And I have unconventional perspectives on this. It's not for anyone to agree or disagree with but to simply know, there's more than one way to be the person that you need to be in the industry. When I started out, I remember the first lecture that I had, there were 10 women in the industry. And it was drilled down into women coming into the industry, you are the minority, you must find you must do this, you have to bear the flag. So I did. I did that for many years. But things started to crack in that narrative because I realised that this narrative was going on and on and on. Nothing actually is changing. Everything is changing on the surface level when it comes to, you know, women in construction. And women especially, we're putting ourselves out there not on their merit not on their results but on their gender. And I did that and it did not feel right. I couldn't articulate why that didn't feel right. So then it got to a point in my career where I said, you know, I'm going to put this narrative down. Because at the same time, what I was doing was listening to more business podcasts, entrepreneurship podcasts. And I was realising that women were doing exceptionally well. And it had nothing to do with their gender. And I thought, hang on how come women in entrepreneurship do not play this narrative, but women in corporate do. And that's what made me say, You know what, I'm just going to put it down. And when I did, I was able to realise that that narrative, and that conventional set of beliefs was not serving me or my vision that was not taking the principle based approach to achieving success on my own terms, and realising my own potential. Because potential and achievement has nothing to do with gender, but everything to do with your own thinking, your own paradigms, and the beliefs that you choose to act on or not act on. So when I realised that hang on, there is no such thing as a glass ceiling, there's no such thing as you know, because of my gender, I am hard done by in the world of entrepreneurship, that doesn't exist because I am in control of my own brand, my own business, my own income, I learned the high impact skill set, I learnt the high-performance mindset in order to achieve what I want. And the success that I have today has nothing to do with my agenda. This was not something which predicated my success or not. So at first, yes, of course, you know, it was important to re experience what I had in the industry to know that I had to go down the polar opposite way, and not actually promote or fly that flag, because it's, in its totality, a set of limiting beliefs, that actually prevents people from seeing what is possible, and also making them build their own ceiling. Now, people don't like to hear this. And this is just one other common ideology, which I vehemently reject. And go against it, do I need people to agree with me? No, but I do need people to think and actually think, well, why did I choose to internalise this belief, and that can be from anything from business to careers to, to anything and actually think, is this belief? Is this paradigm serving me? Because if it's not, you do need to go against the majority mindset. And think for yourself?

Aaron Yeah, look, well said. And I actually completely agree with that. And almost sounds like, like, if you want to choose to believe that there is a glass ceiling there? Well, that exists in all parts of the industry, it doesn't matter whether it comes down to sex or race or gender, or, or height or, you know, embodiment, what it's all around it. So, yes, I think it would be prudent not to acknowledge that there are some, you know, I'm sure there's some examples and cases where people have been involved in division because of who they are as a person or what they look like, or whether they're a man or a woman. But that's always been there. And it's not up to you to hear about it and be blocked by it. It's about the leaders to acknowledge that it's there. But push forward and get on with things and do your job, isn't it and reach for the stars with what you do?

Elinor Exactly. And I was experiencing whatever you want to call it, the bias, the limitations. But then I thought, hang on, if I get angry at the system, how am I benefiting me? And then I realised that even if this is happening, I did not back then this was around 2017, maybe 15, somewhere between there where I realised Hang on, I don't have the skill set to navigate this. I also don't have the mindset to navigate this. And it's not the system's fault. I'm the one in charge of my own career. What do I need to do to bypass the system and not be another statistic? I had no interest in being another statistic and also having this victim mindset. I mean, like you said, your race, you didn't choose your gender. I didn't choose it. Your religion didn't choose it. Could you change all these things? Yes. But I'm not going to base my success on any of these things. Because I didn't choose it. I did not control these elements. What can I control? My mindset and my skill set development?

Aaron Yeah, well said, You're well known. You've got some best selling books out there. Could you share some insight into what led you into writing these books and tell us about them?

Elinor I always had the vision that when I retire, I would have something to say, after slugging it out in the construction industry. And then I would write a book. And as I was progressing in my thought leadership journey, it felt very natural and automatic that I would write a book. I truly believe that everyone has a book within them. So my first book is constructing your career. And it's the 12 foundational stages, you need to work on the greatest project that you ever will, which is, of course, yourself. And as you're familiar with in the industry, the narrative is always about the projects, externalities, never actually looking at the individual, what constructing your career does is turns that mirror around and gets you to have a holistic approach to constructing your career, and allowing you to see what is possible, and rejecting the conventional career intelligence, which is actually limiting people and actually getting them to reinforce the status quo instead of shattered. And what it is it's, you know, how I've written it is this is how you build a building, design, foundation structure, facade, maintenance, and over. And then this is how it equates to your career. Because what I find is that people in the construction industry may have a great facade, meaning they're just hot air, but there's no substance and they don't know where they're going, most people actually missing an essential pillar in their career. So that was my first book. My second book is leadership in construction. It's a principle based approach to becoming an exceptional, excellent and exemplary leader within the industry, the leadership theory, which has been perpetuated in the industry, it's been around for what 10 2050 years, and there are more problems in the industry than ever before, has anyone actually stopped to realise it's not working leadership tactics, leadership theories on the whole have not actually worked, we need to go back to a principle based approach. So the book is written with nine exceptional leaders and industry titans. And it's based on real time lessons and real time experience synthesised into key pillars of leadership, constructing you, constructing others, and then constructing businesses or projects. And then my third book, which I did not anticipate writing, but it was a book, it was a combination of the other two books, and it's called Young Gun, it's how to become an industry player. And it is the ultimate A to Zed guide, for ambitious constructors to stand out and succeed. Because you would see as well, within the industry, there's that 10%, that brilliant 10%, who, if their ambition is lost, if their ambition is quelled. The industry is not one, which I will say that anyone should work in, in the next 10 years. It is the young guns, who are the last remaining hope of the industry, they're the hopium in order to ensure that the problems of today are not perpetuated. But as you know, the industry can be a very suffocating place. There are so many people who say, Erin, you should do this, but they're not actually looking at who isn't where we need to go. And what they're doing is they're reinforcing the limitations. So this is the ultimate guide for young guns to win, I want them to win, they have to win, because if they're not winning, then who is it? Because it's not those with a mediocre mindset, who just want to do the bare minimum. And they want the absolute maximum,

Aaron I actually had New South Wales building Commissioner David Chandler on the show, as a former guest and, and he's kind of an old school guy. And he was sort of talking about how younger people are in such a rush to get that project management badge or you know, that construction manager badge. And back in the day, like in the 80s, and 90s. And probably before that, you had to earn your stripes, and you had to gain the knowledge. So you came out of university, and you had to work hard. And like you said with you, you're 12 steps to your book, it's broken down into stages, and you've got to build the foundations, like you say, or you come out of uni, that's the design stage and, and work your way up to develop that, that well oiled machine, if you like, of you as a person, particularly in corporate world.

Elinor Correct, there is an obsession, I want to become a project manager. And I thought that by 30, I had to become a project manager, but I always knew I had to earn my stripes. You can't work smart without first putting in the sweat equity without first actually working hard and doing what other people don't want to do. There is no antidote to that. But I see people want the title, they want what they perceive to be the recognition but they don't actually want the function of management. And people need to stop basing their entire the entirety of their existence based on a job title, or think just because well I've been here and I'm uh, you know, I've got one or two years of experience and I'd had a screwed out of subby then I want to become a project manager. That is such a toxic way of thinking and it doesn't sit When not for long term success, and yes, you're right, there is a rush, I have to climb, I have to climb really quickly. Well, have you ever stopped to think what if, if that ladder is leaning against the wrong wall, and then people arrive at a certain destination, and they're like, hang on, this isn't what I wanted. And I felt that's exactly when my paradigm started to break down, because there was no meaning behind where I thought I was going. And also why. So, yes, those who have that sense of entitlement, their path is going to run out really quickly from under them.

Now, one of the great reasons that I wanted to have a chat with you, Elinor is over the last two, getting on to probably three years now we've seen this mass exodus of people who have had corporate careers and they've gone out, you know, we've had COVID hidden, and it's well publicised in the media about this mass exodus from the workforce. I'm going to make a prediction here that yes, that's been happening. And it has been happening for a while now. And I'm sure there's people that have construction management roles and thought, well, I've had my builder's licence for some time, now's the time to go out and get it and, and work for myself. What I think will happen as the economy slows down and the interest rates go up, and particularly the construction industry starts to face more and more challenges. I actually predict that there'll be a lot of people actually, whether they want to or have to go back and return to the corporate career and construction. I would love for you to shed some light into corporate career and that aspect of construction.

Elinor Great prediction, let's timestamp this and let's pull this out and then five years and see where we all ended up. It is a truly fascinating time. And what COVID did was not actually create anything, it just exposed many people's lack of skill set, lack of preparation, lack of mindset, lack of mental resistance, just a complete lack. As a quote that my mentor Ron Malhotra always says, you know, when the seas are calm, then everyone can do well, right? But what do you do when the seas are rough, that's when the really good sailors are actually made. And what COVID did was not was not create this, it just exposed people's lack of preparedness and readiness for what will come and we're still seeing the fallout, it's not actually not to be, you know, a pessimist person, but it's not going to get better anytime soon, things have to get worse before they can actually get better. And it is actually a fascinating time to both be in the industry. But also take a perspective back and and observe what is actually happening, I equally predict that there will be a mass exodus, most people have realised that being in corporate is not necessarily in alignment with their vision and their values, people have had a lot of time to sit with their own thoughts and onto themselves and actually think well, what do I actually want to experience? We are going to see more and more people who have realised that the gleam of corporations isn't that great because there have been some companies who have done an exemplary job at supporting their employees during such turbulent times. But there have also been many companies who have just thrown out people with a scrap heap, the minute that it's not working, and they just want to click back to we've always done it this way. And that doesn't suit people. So there's been many things playing out in the industry. And yes, that has forced people to be like, well, I'll do it myself, which is great. But people have a lot of misconceptions about business. I mean, as you know, with everything that you set up and start up, it's not a walk in the park, it's not a walk in the park in the best of economic times. And it's not a walk in the park in the, in the not so good of, of economic times. And the skill set in the mindset that corporate instils to some extent is useful, but there is a chasm between what it takes to succeed in corporate and what it takes to succeed in the entrepreneurial world.

Aaron What are some of the benefits of corporate life in construction that a lot of people who you know, might be running a construction business, they might not have the corporate structure, but those that are sort of wanting some insight into how that world works? Can you shed some light into some of the aspects of that career?

Elinor What it does set you up really well for is to have that ability to look at many moving parts at one time, as you know on a project, its finances, its people, its legalities. It's the angry sabe, it's the angry head contractor. You're dealing with many different personalities. And this can all happen within the span of a day. What it does is allow you to have a very macro picture but also really get into the details. What project management teaches us how to, you know you're sort of running a small business unto itself you have input To outputs you have to deal with certain clients, you have to do many things at the same time. At the same time. People who succeed in project management, they do develop this quite dynamic mindset. They're quite flexible in their approach, and they don't get frazzled or heated up over the slightest of inconveniences. You can keep this cool, calm demeanour. And you have to because imagine on project delivery, if everything that went wrong, you would just have an emotional reaction you'll never get anywhere. So people who have done really well in that sense, that does lend itself to doing really well in the business, especially in small businesses. In construction, as you know, as well, it's a heavy industry based on relationships. And business is all about relationships. It's not about what I want to achieve. It's how I can always ensure that people who I work with, they're achieving what they want, in turn, then I achieve what I want, or what I am desiring. So that is also something that construction practice does set people up for because it's the client first. And this is something that does get ingrained into us from very early on, it's the client first, is the client always right? Absolutely not. But they're the ones paying the bills. So I think that also lends itself to doing really well, especially in a small business. We know that it's a relationship based industry, and those who set up, you know, trust and put other people's needs above this are going to serve them well. That's a few examples, as well as also, you know, that people say, oh, you know, communication is key on the set, but not many people do it well. And when it comes to communication, it is quite nuanced. But those who have been able to articulate the requirements and what we're doing really well, that also starts to lend itself into business, as well as people who come through corporate that have not had that employee mindset, which is about me, me, me, right, they haven't created any economy, they have just said, Well, I want I want more money, give me more I'm entitled, because I've been here for five years in business, no one cares about that. I don't get rewarded for what I did a few years ago, I can only get rewarded based on what I do now. And you find in construction, there are people who have exemplary entrepreneurial thinking, they're always focusing on solutions, focusing on values, focusing on other people, they will also do really well.

Aaron So besides buying your top selling books, what some good advice for someone who I reckon who's running a construction business, you know, might be a tier two builder or tier three builder, and they want to add another element of corporate model, if you like, to their business, like what what's something that they could do to really make them stand out and give that feel or structure to their business?

Elinor Whether you want to call it corporate or not. It's branding, branding, and messaging. I find that in the construction industry, they've just started cottoned on to the importance of branding. I remember when I started around two years ago, people were laughing, marking thinking, What a stupid thing to build a brand in construction, let alone a personal one. And now we've found, there's more of an uptake, people are realising that they have positioned themselves like everyone else, they sound like everyone else, they look like everyone else. But they're all basing their value proposition on I'm better. Well, I can say I'm better. You can say I'm better. You can say I've done this project, I'll say I've done this project, where does it end? It doesn't, right. It's not the right way to actually differentiate yourself in the marketplace. So companies that have made quite a serious investment in their brand in articulating their point of differentiation. I can't say that corporate construction does this. Well, there are some small businesses who do this well, there are some large businesses who do this well. But when there is that magnetic and congruent branding, that is based on the inside out of the company, not from the outside in, though those are the ones who start to attract client, unique positioning, and more and more companies as well have started putting the people out behind the projects and, and I love that as well. You know, when I started my podcast two years ago, it was unheard of to speak about the people in construction. No, it was all about the was all about 100 million dollar turnover and, and this is how good our methodology is. And now that as well as started to shift, we'll see more of that. It's not a noisy market just yet. But to differentiate is to package everything that is unique about the essence of the company, and put that out to the world in a congruent and magnetic way that you have positioned yourself as the only company who does this. You can't enter into a zone of no competition. But it has to be done in a very strategic way. And it's not just about how we build better and our projects are bigger.

Aaron Now, your business brand and podcast that construction coach, tell us some exciting things that you're working on with that. And for those that are listening to this and want to sort of get on board and engage you, how does that work?

Elinor For anyone that would like more information or to have a conversation about their ambitions and their goals, I'm available on LinkedIn, Elinor Moshe and on Instagram @Elinor Moshe. One thing that I'm focusing on right now is building that army of young guns. I need an army of the 1% of the young guns that 1% in the industry who will reject the status quo, who do not want to be part of the mediocre mindset that reinforces limitations and who truly want to express their powerhouse ambitions. So what I'm focusing on and learning on right now is building that true network of ambitious and like minded Young Guns, because if they can't see what is possible, and if they fall into convention, then again, the industry is not going to be a good place. Because what we are finding is that the old school leadership is dying, it's not physically but you know, their ideologies are going out. And people, especially in their 20s and early 30s, are realising this isn't working for me. But they also need guidance, they need the networks and the direction and also the inspiration and the courage, the backbone in order to stand up for themselves. So that community, that army of young guns who will adhere to excellence, have that high impact nature about themselves is what I'm focusing on the most at the moment, I've had to stop myself from writing books this year. It's something that comes very easily and naturally to me. But that's the you know, big thing that I'm focusing on is, is the community for young guns, is there a rule supply and demand issue with construction management and project management in the corporate market at the moment, there is a huge demand for a players, you can get an abundance of mediocre players of B of B plus and even a, but a plus is extremely rare to find. And that's where also, the idea of young guns was seated. Because on my podcast and talking to executives and entrepreneurs, they would always express that frustration to find truly a player who will do what it takes in order to play the long term as well. It's that alchemy of characteristics, which is so rare. Is there generally a shortage, yes. Because again, people want to play the short term game and, and they want all the bells and whistles and they want the 200k package and the car, but they can't actually deliver for the business.

Aaron So is there a shortage?

Elinor Yes,

Aaron What are some of the leading organisations doing that sort of sets them apart and differentiates themselves from competitors?

Elinor One thing that I have seen the minority do is create that environment which affords and allows and for lack of a better word allows for that expression of individuality with companies that will say, I want to bring together a whole bunch of individuals, we're not going to fit them into a box. And we're going to build a company around that. It's companies which allow for lack of a better word, it allows and actually fosters that environment where they are not shrinking and suffocating the individual expression. But they encourage that expression. They encourage that individuality, they encourage ideas, they want to see ideas on the table, whether they get enacted or not is a different thing. They have to of course be valuable ideas, but companies that encourage people to you know, pursue their own goals where they can be fulfilled at work, and they don't feel like they're suffocated, I think are the ones who are doing really well on that over the last two years were people who have wanted flexibility or have wanted different things. And that's been accommodated. They've been able to retain that.

Aaron Yeah, look, I think that's obviously very valuable for the people that are in that career. And I think it's also a lifestyle kind of thing. So it's about balance. And balance is a very broad term. But I think the key difference I mean, everyone who's worked in a corporation sees the light to say, Well, look, I'd love to go out and work for myself. It's, you know, work flexibly and I can work my own hours, but then when you actually take that plunge, it's sometimes not all that it's cracked up to be. And there are all these different challenges. And so, this is exactly what I'm sort of talking about. I think that there'll be a percentage of people that have done that or are thinking about doing it and then they will return to that. And if they can still have their one day a week from home or do something in their community or be a part of regular networking, such as your organisation, or I guess it's it's not changing the model, but it's tweaking it to maybe add another 10% Change 10% Or could be 25% of what's currently in their workplace. And all of a sudden, you've got a tier-one workforce that loves what they're doing.

Elinor Definitely. And that tweaking part is essential. And, you know, for example, there are people who have, because of economic conditions, or they want to pursue a passion, or all of a sudden, they have more time because they were not commuting, they might have started a side hustle or something on the side. And I certainly have, from my experience found that people get threatened by that, because they think you're just going to leave, well, if we will actually work companies, if they accommodated for that, and actually realise that this might not be a financial thing, this might be a person wanting to express their passion, they will become even more fulfilled at work, and even more likely to stay at work. So it's recognising that people are multi dimensional, they're not these one dimensional characters that can only do one thing. And if they do, if they dare to have anything outside of work, or even a side hustle, it could be family, it could be sport, it could be being on a board, I guess it could be anything, being able to integrate the two models is going to be beneficial in the long term.

Aaron Yeah, well said, now, what's on the cards, what's in future for constructing you?

Elinor the podcast is on a mission to expand globally. Because what I found is that the principles of what it takes to succeed in construction are universal. And I you know, from my own experience, I found I always found that taking a principle based approach will lend itself to its success. And now I'm on a mission with constructing Q my podcast to prove that there is a set of principles, that people who have done exceptional things in their district they adhere to, there is no secret, it will take it might take a very long time. But I will interview someone from every country on the world to prove that what it takes to become an exceptional, exemplary and excellent person in construction is absolutely universal. So that's the mission with the podcast, of course, the mission with the books is to get it into as many hands as possible. And of course, there are the mentoring programmes and everything that are always expanding, as well as the community. So always on an upward trajectory and moreso, thinking about what is the industry need now it's changed from when I started two years ago. So it's always about looking at what does the industry need now that they don't have access to that if they had would absolutely transform them? From the Inside Out?

Aaron I'm finding, particularly with the people that I work with, people are open to everything in anything at the moment, well, the world has changed, right? So the industry has changed as well. So people are running organisations are very much like, Well, we actually want to find out what people want. And, and if if, if me, as a CEO says to, you know, my staff up, tell me what's going on in the business? What do we need to do to improve things around here and improve our company, you might get a limited group of feedback. Whereas businesses now more than ever actually saying, well, Eleanor, I'll bring you into my business. And I want to find out, how can I improve my workforce? How can What do they want? What do I need to change because the workloads, they're the reputations there, but if I don't have the people, the business is nothing. So help me keep these people train these people find out what they want, and filter it back to the CEO or the managing director to actually action those changes, it goes back

Elinor to listing and this was always a massive point of frustration is that people would not hear you and they would not see you could actually be telling them in as clear as day what the point of frustration is. And what they trust, try and do is put your back into the box. So actually listening to what is being said, but also what is not being said and seeing the whole person, allowing people to bring their whole person to work and as correctly as you said, providing also that psychological safety to say something and not actually be, you know, discouraged or labelled as a troublemaker for expressing a thought that is slightly left a field. I mean, how dare you? Right?

Aaron Absolutely. But that's what it's about. It's about having those honest conversations and, and working together on on, you know, coming up with solutions that that are practical within reason, of course, I mean, maybe if you're you're a project manager, and you're asking for maybe two or three days remote work well, that's gonna be challenging, obviously, and that's probably part of the problem with construction as well. It is very much hands on you have to be involved you have to be with In an arm's reach of, of that project, because as soon as you go too far, things start to happen that then impact the project's performance.

Elinor Definitely, definitely it does have it's in everything that we've been talking about, you know, we're not it's not a tech company, it's not a laptop lifestyle. And there's a big difference between a project manager and an excavator operator, right? They may not have that flexibility. But this still comes back to people knowing what do I want, what I actually want, from my career, what are the values that I want to instil and live by? And if someone wants to, you know, do that, you know, be that project manager and it ticks all the boxes, then? Fantastic. But if it doesn't, then what do I need from my career in order to be fulfilled? And then what is the vehicle in order to get there? It might be employment, it might be a hybrid, it might be working from Bali? I don't know, it might be a small business, it might be your own construction company. It does. It could be anything, but this is the question that people need to ask themselves. And that is, what do I really, really, really want. In university, people are still only shown a one dimensional pathway, meaning you have to work for the biggest builders with the biggest cranes and you need to become a project manager. There are so many options within the industry, there's contact, there's quantity, surveying, there's all sorts of consultancies, there's, the list is endless. I think it's more important that people keen and comfortable with exploring first, rather than all rushing to work for the tallest tower with the biggest crane. It's not as lucrative as they make it out to be. It's actually quite limiting. I think that's what's really important is having that willingness to explore. And even I didn't have that at first, I was so scared. I wanted to move to clients I project management early on. But when you start asking, you know, other professionals questions, you get this roaring? No, you, you need to stick it out and go for the largest projects. And I'm like, okay, majority are saying this, it must be right. And the alarm bells didn't go off when I was mid 20s. Well, if majority are saying it, I have to go the other way. Because the more that I followed that conventional, and not even kind of call it advice, it was useless opinions, the more and more that I hated my career. So the perfect career is one that you have carved out for yourself against all convention, not following the herd all applying for the most lucrative grad positions, there are people who would love to work in fit out or residential or, again, anything that the industry is so multifaceted. And if I could do it all over again, I would probably end up in fit out and residential actually love that. But there's such an ego within the industry that the bigger the contract, the better you aren't. But there's no correlation between that when you actually dissect that.

Aaron Yeah, it's very much Oh style, isn't it. And you do see it when you see job descriptions that are on job adverts and things like that, that you see from time to time where, you know, we are this way or that and it's very much and and as you say some of the most happiest content. And successful businesses are those that aren't they're beating their chests and they're just running a well oiled machine and just moving forward and having a great reputation looking after their stuff, not doing anything extreme. Some of the things you see that Google were doing 10 years ago and stuff like that, because we can't do that in our industry. It's not possible all the time. So it's about listening to your people, balancing that finding out what they want, which is consistent with what you're about and the construction coach Eleanor so hats off to you well done and I really appreciate you coming on a build hatch and for those that are listening and want to reach out and get into contact with you what's the best way to go about it?

Elinor Elinor Moshe on LinkedIn and Instagram and my website is theconstructioncoach.com.au. All books are available through Amazon in Australia also booktopia but again, also on my website theconstructioncoach.com.au

Thanks again for coming on Build Hatch it's been really nice getting to know you and I look forward to staying in touch in future

Elinor Definitely. Thank you Aaron.

Aaron Well, that was another Build Hatch episode with Elinor Moshe from The Construction Coach. And I certainly encourage everyone to head over and have a listen to her constructing new podcast.Thanks for listening to another episode of Build Hatch